Chris Holzman ismert amerikai HEMA-vívó és a XIX. sz. olasz vívás neves kutatója írt egy részletes ismertetést a Cold Steel új vívószablyájáról. Ez főleg azok számára lehet érdekes és élvezetes, akiknek nincs lehetősége beszerezni vagy akár csak megnézni egy ilyen játékszert.
Holzman's review of the new Cold Steel Gymnasium Saber
„Tod Glenn ordered one of the new Cold Steel fencing sabres and had it shipped to me to look over before I ship it on to him. While there are a few nice things about it, on the whole I am not impressed, and would not allow students to use it as is, and would also decline fencing against anyone using one.
The blade:
Length of 82cm
„Tod Glenn ordered one of the new Cold Steel fencing sabres and had it shipped to me to look over before I ship it on to him. While there are a few nice things about it, on the whole I am not impressed, and would not allow students to use it as is, and would also decline fencing against anyone using one.
The blade:
Length of 82cm
Width at base: .......................... 20mm
Width at point: ......................... 12.5mm
Thickness at base: ................... 5mm
Thickness at point: .................. 3.8mm
The curvature of the blade is evenly distributed and a depth of about 2.5cm.
The point is rounded like many antiques. Weight: 411g. This blade, given how short it is, could probably stand to lose about 60g-70g in the medio and debole, and end up appropriately flexible. Threading: unknown, but something smaller than 6mm.
Width at point: ......................... 12.5mm
Thickness at base: ................... 5mm
Thickness at point: .................. 3.8mm
The curvature of the blade is evenly distributed and a depth of about 2.5cm.
The point is rounded like many antiques. Weight: 411g. This blade, given how short it is, could probably stand to lose about 60g-70g in the medio and debole, and end up appropriately flexible. Threading: unknown, but something smaller than 6mm.
Tang: normal in shape, but short enough that they had to use a long post nut to secure it. Not a bad thing, but odd. I suspect the blade blanks are based on their sharp 1902 officers sabre or one of the other swords in that series, and they decided to use a longer grip than the regulation swords, and made up the difference with a longer nut. No big deal.
Flex: nearly inflexible. Pressing the point against the floor, it took dramatically more pressure to cause the blade to flex than any of my antique fencing or sharp sabres, including my pre-1860 Putsch & Sohn made Italian cavalry training sabre (a sharp) with a 20-21 mm wide blade that weighs 60g less and is 2cm longer. It is about as stiff as my sharp antique US m-1860 cavalry sabre blade. This is the primary reason I would not allow one to be used by my students.
Chris Vermillion provided me a weight of 370g for the blade of his Cold Steel US M1902 sabre - so the fencing sabre blade is ~40g heavier than the similar sharp.
Guard: ...................... 313g.
Backstrap: ................ 36g
Grip: ......................... 33g
Ferrule: ..................... 6g
Nut: .......................... 8g
The guard is basically the shape of a Parise model sabre. It's attractive enough, but fairly heavy, still, the total hilt weight is reasonable. (Masiello specs 390g for total hilt weight in his 1887 book).
The shape and size of the grip is very similar to that of the Hanwei "Radaelli"/"Pecoraro"/"Hutton" grips, with the exception of being just a little shorter. Backstrap is nicely shaped, grip is hard plastic instead of rubber like the Hanwei grip, which is an improvement. A little more texture would be good. If you don't like the Hanwei grips because of their small girth, this grip will also disappoint you. To be fair, this is totally within the norm of grip size and shape for Italian fencing sabres, but at the small end of it. For a blade this heavy, it makes controlling the sabre far more difficult than it needs to be.
The backstrap is nicely checkered and has the decorative cuts at the butt typical of many Italian fencing sabres (found on three antiques in my own collection).
Total blade weight: ............. 411g
Total hilt weight: ................. 396g
Total weapon weight: ......... 807g
Point of balance: ................ 14cm
Remember, in 1868, Capt. Del Frate specs a 350/370g blade/hilt with a 90cm long blade, for a total of 720g for the cavalry training sabre to be used at Radaelli's fencing masters school for the Italian army - and the 1876 scale illustration is for a 20mm tapering to 10mm blade at 90cm. In hand, the weapon feels very point heavy, and the very small grip makes it somewhat hard to control.
The short blade length (6-8 cm less than the typical spec for Italian sabres of the era) and the extreme stiffness make this something I would not buy, use, or allow to be used by my students or against them, in its current form.
Before anyone says, "but Hutton..." it is worth recalling that Hutton merely tells the reader in Cold Steel to get a light fencing sabre like those currently in use on the continent. We should not feel it necessary to use a blunt on the end of a sabre - it wasn't the practice in period, and the wide round tip is perfectly safe in blades that have sufficient flex. If you have a grinder and the skill to thin the blade out to achieve good balance and flexibility without destroying the heat treatment, or if you want the hilts to mount other blades in, it might be worth picking up.”
Flex: nearly inflexible. Pressing the point against the floor, it took dramatically more pressure to cause the blade to flex than any of my antique fencing or sharp sabres, including my pre-1860 Putsch & Sohn made Italian cavalry training sabre (a sharp) with a 20-21 mm wide blade that weighs 60g less and is 2cm longer. It is about as stiff as my sharp antique US m-1860 cavalry sabre blade. This is the primary reason I would not allow one to be used by my students.
Chris Vermillion provided me a weight of 370g for the blade of his Cold Steel US M1902 sabre - so the fencing sabre blade is ~40g heavier than the similar sharp.
Guard: ...................... 313g.
Backstrap: ................ 36g
Grip: ......................... 33g
Ferrule: ..................... 6g
Nut: .......................... 8g
The guard is basically the shape of a Parise model sabre. It's attractive enough, but fairly heavy, still, the total hilt weight is reasonable. (Masiello specs 390g for total hilt weight in his 1887 book).
The shape and size of the grip is very similar to that of the Hanwei "Radaelli"/"Pecoraro"/"Hutton" grips, with the exception of being just a little shorter. Backstrap is nicely shaped, grip is hard plastic instead of rubber like the Hanwei grip, which is an improvement. A little more texture would be good. If you don't like the Hanwei grips because of their small girth, this grip will also disappoint you. To be fair, this is totally within the norm of grip size and shape for Italian fencing sabres, but at the small end of it. For a blade this heavy, it makes controlling the sabre far more difficult than it needs to be.
The backstrap is nicely checkered and has the decorative cuts at the butt typical of many Italian fencing sabres (found on three antiques in my own collection).
Total blade weight: ............. 411g
Total hilt weight: ................. 396g
Total weapon weight: ......... 807g
Point of balance: ................ 14cm
Remember, in 1868, Capt. Del Frate specs a 350/370g blade/hilt with a 90cm long blade, for a total of 720g for the cavalry training sabre to be used at Radaelli's fencing masters school for the Italian army - and the 1876 scale illustration is for a 20mm tapering to 10mm blade at 90cm. In hand, the weapon feels very point heavy, and the very small grip makes it somewhat hard to control.
The short blade length (6-8 cm less than the typical spec for Italian sabres of the era) and the extreme stiffness make this something I would not buy, use, or allow to be used by my students or against them, in its current form.
Before anyone says, "but Hutton..." it is worth recalling that Hutton merely tells the reader in Cold Steel to get a light fencing sabre like those currently in use on the continent. We should not feel it necessary to use a blunt on the end of a sabre - it wasn't the practice in period, and the wide round tip is perfectly safe in blades that have sufficient flex. If you have a grinder and the skill to thin the blade out to achieve good balance and flexibility without destroying the heat treatment, or if you want the hilts to mount other blades in, it might be worth picking up.”
Képek a FB-on:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/HEMAAlliance/permalink/1452579741434415/
FB megjegyzések:
* "Cold Steel thinks everything needs to be overengineered and indestructible. I blame the idiots who try to break things in their "reviews.""
* "1 finger of pressure on the blade and the flex is self evident."
* Holzman (H): "How much actual pressure? I don't have a good way to measure it, (edit for clarity): but the one I had was every bit as stiff as my antique US M1860 cav sabre blade, and much stiffer than my sharp pre-1860 Putsch & Sohn Italian cavalry training sabre or my antique 1902.... This particular one, I had to lean on and apply body weight get it to flex rather than just pushing it with my hand. It may be that they are widely variable...."
* "Naturally this is an anecdotal measurement, but there is not body weight behind this pressure to flex it as you can see. I have access to 2 of them so I can pressure the other one. I've sparred with these swords and didn't find the flex to be unsafe or overly stiff."
* H: "Perhaps the trick will be to figure out a quantifiable test of how much deflection happens under X weight hung at the point (though how worthwhile it'll be, I'm not sure, as flex distribution is in some ways just as important - see, e.g. the Hanwei "Pecoraro" and "Radaelli blades (which aren't actually appropriate for either system) where *all* the flex is in the final third, and they die quickly by breaking at that place)."
* "I like Blackfencer's easy method. Push the tip into a bathroom scale until it deflects, there you go."
* "My thought to standardized flex testing would be to clamp the hilt so the blade lies horizontal on its flat over empty space, then hang a 1kg weight (or 1L water bottle) from the tip and measure how much it deflects and where."
* H: "I suspect to make that a really useful measure we would need to also take amount of deflection from the straight line, and where the deepest deflection is, and also how much deflection was obtained v how much hilt travel."
FB megjegyzések:
* "Cold Steel thinks everything needs to be overengineered and indestructible. I blame the idiots who try to break things in their "reviews.""
* "1 finger of pressure on the blade and the flex is self evident."
* Holzman (H): "How much actual pressure? I don't have a good way to measure it, (edit for clarity): but the one I had was every bit as stiff as my antique US M1860 cav sabre blade, and much stiffer than my sharp pre-1860 Putsch & Sohn Italian cavalry training sabre or my antique 1902.... This particular one, I had to lean on and apply body weight get it to flex rather than just pushing it with my hand. It may be that they are widely variable...."
* "Naturally this is an anecdotal measurement, but there is not body weight behind this pressure to flex it as you can see. I have access to 2 of them so I can pressure the other one. I've sparred with these swords and didn't find the flex to be unsafe or overly stiff."
* H: "Perhaps the trick will be to figure out a quantifiable test of how much deflection happens under X weight hung at the point (though how worthwhile it'll be, I'm not sure, as flex distribution is in some ways just as important - see, e.g. the Hanwei "Pecoraro" and "Radaelli blades (which aren't actually appropriate for either system) where *all* the flex is in the final third, and they die quickly by breaking at that place)."
* "I like Blackfencer's easy method. Push the tip into a bathroom scale until it deflects, there you go."
* "My thought to standardized flex testing would be to clamp the hilt so the blade lies horizontal on its flat over empty space, then hang a 1kg weight (or 1L water bottle) from the tip and measure how much it deflects and where."
* H: "I suspect to make that a really useful measure we would need to also take amount of deflection from the straight line, and where the deepest deflection is, and also how much deflection was obtained v how much hilt travel."
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